Hell hath no fury...

[JulietEcho]

... like an atheist who spent their childhood being terrorized by stories of Hell.

This post doesn't have any discussion questions at the end, like most of mine. It's more of a personal essay.

One of the few things that I really feel constitutes emotional abuse of children is threatening them with Hell. While it's far from true that all (or even most) atheists grew up in fundamentalist homes, there are many of us who did. As a child, Hell seemed to me to be a very real place where very real people could spend eternity suffering, with no hope of salvation. I was terrified of going there, and I was terrified at the thought of my friends going there.

Lots of theists (including almost all Jews and large denominations of Christians) don't consider hell (or even necessarily any afterlife) a crucial part of their teachings. To them, hell could constitute something abstract, something imaginary, something figurative, something escapable, something unknowable, etc. Their children don't grow up thinking about it or fearing it. But there are others who aren't as lucky.

When your parents and teachers tell you about Hell with the same serious tone they use to teach you about math and hot stoves and how cars work, you never really get over it. Those who advocate Pascal's Wager and stage Hell Houses on Halloween understand how powerful fear is as a motivator, and they use it to gain converts. Parents who believe in Hell as a real, scary place feel it's their duty to warn their children in order to keep them on the right track. Pastors use it to keep the pews full, tele-evangelists use it to rake in cash.

It might be a small minority of theists who do these things, but they're a very scary, very real group, and I believe that what they're doing is horrible.

[hoverFrog]

Nicola Holt is heading up a campaign to raise awareness on this issue in England. You can find out more at Stop the Nightmares. The idea is that the campaign will eventually spread to North America and beyond.

Hemant also posted something on this a while ago but it didn't get a lot of support.

[JulietEcho]

Thanks for the links hoverfrog... the site is especially interesting, although - like many of the posters who replied to Hemant's topic - I don't think litigation is the answer. Addressing the issue and informing Christians of the damage this sort of thing can cause could help a bit, and plenty of statistical and anecdotal evidence has been compiled.

The question for fundamentalist parents becomes: Is it more important that my child be aware of the eternal damnation I believe exists for sinners or for them to grow up in an emotionally supportive home? Can I bring my child up to accept salvation without bringing "Hell" into the picture at such a young age?

Even for parents who are dead-set on indoctrinating their children into fundamentalist Christianity, scaring kids with the threat of Hell doesn't seem necessary or beneficial.

[sexorcista]

..I don't think litigation is the only answer. But something needs to be done to protect children - education as well as not accepting the defence of 'religious belief'. In Aust there has (from time to time) been media campaigns to raise awareness of the issue of 'smacking' as well as other discussions outing 'churches' who are being political and lobbying for 'parents rights' (according to their xian beliefs) over and above the rights of the child (according to secular law).

I'd like to also share that not all fundamentalist push the 'hell' dogma in the same way but scare the bejebus out of their kids in other ways. Ie. End times or "judgement day' ....and to be suspicious of people who don't go to their church and be afraid of the world generally. I think its reasonable to say that being taught to be fearful of the here and now is as terrible as it is to teach a kid of fearing 'hell' or something to come. Heaven is also not something terribly benign either imo.

Also there are some fundies (rimes with undies) who have a specific prophet who is deemed to be the ultimate authority in such things as teaching children and general family values. Horrible stuff! that not only makes use of the 'hell' dogma as the ultimate punishment but condones physical abuse as being 'god' given right of christian parents.
(Oh I'd also like to say that to separate and only look at fundies is kinda not looking at the issue of religious abuse (if that's the term) in all flavours of christianity.)

I'm sure people have seen that Jesus Camp Movie...Yeah...I tend to become 'passionate' about children's rights in terms of this kind of thing too Sarah. Glad you brought it up.

[hoverFrog]

I don't think that litigation is the answer at all. Education is the answer and Nicola's campaign is about raising the issue so that it is discussed. Talking about it and bringing it forward gets people to be open and better able to understand the implications of the issue. Nobody wants to scare their kids but some people just don't know of another way.

[sexorcista]

Nobody wants to scare their kids but some people just don't know of another way.

Some xians actively seek out to scare kids and young people and I did mention 'education' myself in the last post.

Know of this infamous American tradition? Hell House.

Hell houses are haunted attractions typically run by North American, fundamentalist Christian churches or parachurch groups. These depict sin, the torments of the damned in Hell, and usually conclude with a depiction of heaven. They are most typically operated in the days preceding Halloween, although they are not part of the holiday.

A hell house, like a conventional haunted-house attraction, is a space set aside in which actors attempt to frighten patrons with gruesome exhibits and scenes. The format is that the various scenes are presented as a series of short vignettes with a narrated guide. Unlike haunted houses, hell houses focus on occasions and effects of sin or the fate of unrepentant sinners in the afterlife. They are scheduled during the month of October to capitalize on the similarities between hell houses and haunted attractions.

The exhibits at a hell house often have a controversial tone and focus on sins that are also issues of concern to evangelicals in the United States. Hell houses frequently feature exhibits that depict sin and its consequences. Common examples include abortion, suicide, use of alcoholic beverages[citation needed] and other recreational drugs, adultery and pre-marital sex, occultism, homosexuality, and Satanic ritual abuse. Hell houses typically emphasize the belief that anyone who does not accept Christ as their personal savior is damned to Hell.

also...for convenience...from wiki

In an interview with Roberts for the Channel 4 documentary The Root of All Evil?, noted atheist and evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins objected to some of the methods used by Hell Houses; namely teaching by instilling the fear of eternal damnation in children and adolescents. He commented that using the concept of hell for moral policing was child abuse, since children walk away with nightmares and extreme fear. Coming in for particular attack by Dawkins is the question of how the Pastor can be certain that the morals and ethics being preached in the Hell House are valid - since they are based on religious scripture.

I've read many, many posts from ex xians who have been traumatised by the stuff of christianity. Not just kids...

[hoverFrog]

I've read many, many posts from ex xians who have been traumatised by the stuff of christianity. Not just kids...

The shouldn't the issue be raised so that people are aware of how damaging it can be?

[sexorcista]

I've read many, many posts from ex xians who have been traumatised by the stuff of christianity. Not just kids...

The shouldn't the issue be raised so that people are aware of how damaging it can be?

YES! I think it has been ..and for many generations. That is the point of the EX christian EX denominational thread and of course the point of the individual who takes the time to speak out or post on the web.

but nothing changes does it? ...all the time there is a fairly comprehensive attitude 'an hands off' approach to anything remotely related to christianity.
Its okay and completely acceptable (in most circles) to openly criticise other religions ie. Muslim but why not Xian?

PC gone mad...? meanwhile what are you going to tell a kid who is scared shitless?.."wait awhile while your mum/dad gets re educated".? (Christianity actively seeks to block all that out . Xians who don't believe in hell/supernatural are a very small % )

[Roar]

Sarah, I agree with you. I hate hell houses with a passion. I have never been in one myself but I have been in simulations of hell that a Bible club in high school tried to show us. That alone scared me to the point where I turned away from God. It's funny that Hell houses show you this long line of terrible scenes and then end with heaven. I would think it should be the other way around because I think it focuses on the sin more than the love and forgiveness and grace. I've always had a problem with hell houses because they focus on fear rather than a relationship. Sometimes I wonder how much of a relationship can truly be if it is rooted in fear.

Also, I think hell is used in the wrong way with these places. The most simple definition of hell is separation from God. A lot of churches do stay away from the idea of hell but I think it can be useful because it reminds us that we will be judged. That doesn't mean we'll be tormented for the rest of eternity necessarily but we are accountable for our actions. It can raise several other questions for application too, ie when we sin are we separating ourselves from God? and are we creating a hell on earth when we do something terrible? Hell houses tend to miss these applications. Sadly.

Hoverfrog, I'm so happy to hear that a group is stepping up and trying to protect people from this. I certainly hope it does come to NA.

[sexorcista]

when we sin are we separating ourselves from God? and are we creating a hell on earth when we do something terrible? Hell houses tend to miss these applications. Sadly.

what's a sin? Could it be that 'hell house' (which I didn't notice before was already mentioned by sarah ..opps!) is a 'sin' (whatever the definiton is?

Hell..is useful because it reminds us that we will be judged.

Okay. I disagree that children/young people/ people need to be given such a dreadful consequence for not believing in a god. ..or making mistakes (sex outside marriage which according to most xian values is wrong - I don't get that?)

Forgiveness suggests that someone has judged it .

(I'm aware of a few xian churches who avoid the topic..but at the same time don't make that much 'noise' about other churches who preach the hell doctrine ie. the catholics/penticostals/baptists/methodists/ as so on)

[hoverFrog]

A lot of churches do stay away from the idea of hell but I think it can be useful because it reminds us that we will be judged.

That's interesting because I'd always thought that the presence of judges did that quite well enough. Police find and catch the bad guy, courts try them, judges judge them, prisons punish them. It's nice and simple and even works sometimes. We don't even need hell.

[sexorcista]

="hoverFrog"]We don't even need hell

...and that's the Trillion Dollar $ question..why do christians need it? (or should I say the business organisation) certainly taps into the drama of the tale - perhaps too boring without it.

Here's a nice quote

If there is a God who will damn his children forever, I would rather go to hell than to go to heaven and keep the society of such an infamous tyrant. I make my choice now. I despise that doctrine. It has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the hearts of children, and poisoned the imaginations of men. It has been a constant pain, a perpetual terror to every good man and woman and child. It has filled the good with horror and with fear; but it has had no effect upon the infamous and base. It has wrung the hearts of the tender, it has furrowed the cheeks of the good. This doctrine never should be preached again. What right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel to stand at the portals of the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and fill the future with horror and with fear? I do not believe this doctrine, neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a hyena."

..........Robert Ingersoll, "The Liberty of Man, Woman and Child", 1877

[hoverFrog]

Let's not forget that the idea of a Hell as punishment for the unbeliever only came about in the New Testament. There's no Leviticus to blame for the harshness of this, it's down to Jesus and his gang. It works as a direct contradiction, in my view, to the loving hippy who went about curing lepers and raising the dead.

If Jesus is the carrot then hell is the stick in Christianity but the point of Jesus message is that the stick isn't needed, that we have an eternal and perfect love and need never fear. Hell just messes the whole thing up. That's the problem with have two absolutes, they just don't mesh.

[JulietEcho]

Bumping this to post a link to the recent blog entry by Jesse Galef.

Be prepared to be pretty pissed off (and disgusted) when you see the video.



It's quite popular, and I've actually seen it posted on facebook by a friend (a girl I used to baby-sit, who's in middle school right now and has parents on IVCF staff, just like my parents).

It's one of the sickest and most effective ways used by religious people - both those who might use it cynically to up their membership and those who use it sincerely because they believe it - and it works.

[Neon Genesis]

Counter that sickening video whenever you see it with a video by Bishop Spong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

[Chal]

If it wasn't for the fact that I'm going to spend the whole weekend on my OS assignment, that video would have ruined my mood for the day.

Is there really anyone in North America who hasn't actually heard about Jesus and him dying on the cross for everyone's sins? It's not exactly esoteric knowledge. (Unlike these damn syscalls...). So, while in retrospect I may wish that someone else had pressured me into converting if I wound up in Hell, there's no way of knowing that beforehand. Death is essentially an event horizon here, there's no way to transmit information back across it. In other words, threatening a non-believer with Hell is like threatening them with a Pokemon.

Yeah, I think I'll stick with that analogy.

Now, back to work.

[Sackbut]

In other words, threatening a non-believer with Hell is like threatening them with a Pokemon

The video is not threatening the non-believer, though. The video is threatening the believer.

What's interesting to me is that the believer is threatened on behalf of his friend. There is no heavenly benefit for the believer to convert his friend; there is only his human concern for his fellow man. The believer is already "saved", there is no further benefit for the conversion, so no incentive for doing so. Yet the believer is going to tell you that atheists won't do anything good for other people because they have no incentive.

[happycynic]

On the memetic level, it's obviously designed to increase the likelihood of the meme being transferred from one person to another, by emotionally convincing hellfire-and-brimstone theists to become hellfire-and-brimstone preachy theists. Sort of like making an infected cell turn from non-contagious to contagious.

[Neon Genesis]

The video is not threatening the non-believer, though. The video is threatening the believer.

I'm reminded of something that a guest preacher at my parents' church once said that the most threatening lie Satan ever created to destroy Christianity wasn't to trick people into thinking there is no God or that there is no hell but it's to trick people into thinking there's no rush to save people from hell. So, not only do people deserve to go to hell, but if they go to hell, not only is it their fault but it's also the believers' fault for not evangelizing enough.

[Chal]

In other words, threatening a non-believer with Hell is like threatening them with a Pokemon

The video is not threatening the non-believer, though. The video is threatening the believer.

Well, the video is threatening the believer to be more aggressive in threatening their non-believing friends, or at least that's what I got out of it.