Science Disproves Evolution

Use this thread if you are interested in converting to a religion or want to convince others to convert.

Re: The Validity of Thought 1

Postby hoverFrog on 28 Oct 2009 8:59 pm

Pahu78 wrote:If life is ultimately the result of natural processes or chance, then so is thought. Your thoughts—including what you are thinking now—would ultimately be a consequence of a long series of irrational causes. Therefore, your thoughts would have no validity, including the thought that life is a result of chance or natural processes
Why would you dismiss carte blanche the thoughts of others because you do not know all the steps that they took to express them? If your thoughts do indeed come about by random and non-rational causes does that invalidate your thoughts? I think not. Cogito ergo sum.

This argument, as so many others that you have expressed, boils down to reductio ad absurdum. You dislike or fear the implications of an idea so you reject it without giving it the weight that it deserves. You dislike the evolutionary idea that our development is the result of random changes favoured by natural selection and so wrongly assign a random element to all evolutionary development and then claim that the idea is absurd. Once again the changes themselves may well be random but the process of natural selection is anything but. If an animal mutates at random to have a slightly longer leg AND the environment favours an animal with a longer leg (they can run slightly faster perhaps) then this mutation will survive and it will be passed on. If the environment favours shorter legs (long legs break easier) then the mutation will not survive and will not be passed on. This is a general observation and clearly doesn't take into account all the complex factors of survival. The mutation may be random but the result favoured by natural selection is not.

You can extend this to brain size and intelligence in animals including human beings. A variety of random mutations increased brain size and intelligence and the environment proved favourable to such mutations. In effect thinking becomes a trait useful for survival and so intelligent animals survive. As a counter to this examine animals with no natural predators and assess their intelligence. How does it compare with high predation (predators and prey) animals? Our human intelligence has enabled us to survive even though we lack the natural abilities of many other animals. We don't have claws or sharp teeth to aid hunting, we don't run very fast or hide particularly well naturally. Instead we cooperate, communicate and innovate. Why do you consider this to be an invalid process? Do you not see the survival implications for an intelligent animal? Do you not see how this intelligence can be extended beyond the essential scope of survival into more esoteric concepts?

I find it sad that Christians like you demand a special place for humanity as some kind of created being and yet deny the splendor that comes from our very existence as the culmination of a long line of incremental steps. A line not finished I should add. I don't believe in gods but if I did I think I would be more impressed by humanity arising from natural causes at God's direction than I would the idea that we were created as immutable and imperfect beings.
"I'm British; we don't do fatwahs, we do tutting."
User avatar
hoverFrog
Friendly Moderator
 
Posts: 2221
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 6:44 am
Location: Hampshire, England
Gender: Male
I am a/an: Agnostic Atheist

Re: The Validity of Thought 1

Postby Chal on 29 Oct 2009 12:14 am

Pahu78 wrote:If life is ultimately the result of natural processes or chance, then so is thought. Your thoughts—including what you are thinking now—would ultimately be a consequence of a long series of irrational causes. Therefore, your thoughts would have no validity, including the thought that life is a result of chance or natural processes (a).

An earthquake is the consequence of a long series of irrational causes. Is it any less of a disaster for it? Why would thoughts not be valid in the event of a deterministic universe?

Pahu78 wrote: “For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.” J. B. S. Haldane, Possible Worlds (London: Chatto & Windus, 1927), p. 209.

Well unfortunately for your 80-year old quotee, brains are composed of atoms and mental processes are wholly determined by the structure of the brain as far as we can tell.

Further, that our brain is capable of understanding the universe (at least to a degree) is axiomatic. Without it, we have no framework to work with. Thinking we can't is an interesting philosophical exercise, but not terribly useful for finding out truth.
"People don't need to be born again, they need to grow up."
- Bishop Spong
User avatar
Chal
Friendly Old-Timer
 
Posts: 729
Joined: 14 Jan 2009 11:53 pm
Location: Canada
Gender: Male
I am a/an: Agnostic Atheist

Re: The Validity of Thought 1

Postby Pahu78 on 29 Oct 2009 11:33 am

hoverFrog wrote:
Pahu78 wrote:If life is ultimately the result of natural processes or chance, then so is thought. Your thoughts—including what you are thinking now—would ultimately be a consequence of a long series of irrational causes. Therefore, your thoughts would have no validity, including the thought that life is a result of chance or natural processes
Why would you dismiss carte blanche the thoughts of others because you do not know all the steps that they took to express them? If your thoughts do indeed come about by random and non-rational causes does that invalidate your thoughts? I think not. Cogito ergo sum.

This argument, as so many others that you have expressed, boils down to reductio ad absurdum. You dislike or fear the implications of an idea so you reject it without giving it the weight that it deserves. You dislike the evolutionary idea that our development is the result of random changes favoured by natural selection and so wrongly assign a random element to all evolutionary development and then claim that the idea is absurd. Once again the changes themselves may well be random but the process of natural selection is anything but. If an animal mutates at random to have a slightly longer leg AND the environment favours an animal with a longer leg (they can run slightly faster perhaps) then this mutation will survive and it will be passed on. If the environment favours shorter legs (long legs break easier) then the mutation will not survive and will not be passed on. This is a general observation and clearly doesn't take into account all the complex factors of survival. The mutation may be random but the result favoured by natural selection is not.

You can extend this to brain size and intelligence in animals including human beings. A variety of random mutations increased brain size and intelligence and the environment proved favourable to such mutations. In effect thinking becomes a trait useful for survival and so intelligent animals survive. As a counter to this examine animals with no natural predators and assess their intelligence. How does it compare with high predation (predators and prey) animals? Our human intelligence has enabled us to survive even though we lack the natural abilities of many other animals. We don't have claws or sharp teeth to aid hunting, we don't run very fast or hide particularly well naturally. Instead we cooperate, communicate and innovate. Why do you consider this to be an invalid process? Do you not see the survival implications for an intelligent animal? Do you not see how this intelligence can be extended beyond the essential scope of survival into more esoteric concepts?

I find it sad that Christians like you demand a special place for humanity as some kind of created being and yet deny the splendor that comes from our very existence as the culmination of a long line of incremental steps. A line not finished I should add. I don't believe in gods but if I did I think I would be more impressed by humanity arising from natural causes at God's direction than I would the idea that we were created as immutable and imperfect beings.



You make some interesting and good points, but it still seems reasonable that if everything is entirely the product of irrational, unguided mechanisms, as evolution teaches, then our thoughts are also the product of those mechanisms and cannot be trusted, including your response.

It’s an interesting philosophical exercise in my humble opinion.

As to your sadness, the notion that God uses evolution in His creation seems contradictory. God is using His intelligence to direct an entirely irrational, unguided mechanism?

God has revealed that He did indeed create everything and everyone. When He finished His creation, He said; “It is good,” meaning perfect. We were created in His image, which includes mind, spirit and free will. He allows us to exercise our free will knowing we can misuse it, which we did. We committed sin—disobedience.

Rather than annihilating us, He has given us a few thousand years to test our thesis that our way is better than His. He also took on human flesh and shed His blood for our sins so we wouldn’t have to die for our own sins. That act of love has opened the door of salvation for those who repent, submit to Jesus Christ as LORD, and obey His Ten Commandment Law.

One more thing: this life is not our last and only chance to accept His salvation. Reincarnation is part of His plan of salvation so that we can experience the results of our experiment in rebellion. History proves we aren’t doing too well, doesn't it? He will not annihilate anyone before we learn the truth and have time to apply it. For most of us, that time lies in the future.

That should give you something to think about in your product of irrational, unguided mind.
What fools these mortals be!
Pahu78
Friendly Regular
 
Posts: 97
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 2:44 pm

The Validity of Thought 2

Postby Pahu78 on 29 Oct 2009 11:37 am


The Validity of Thought 2

By destroying the validity of ideas, evolution undercuts even the idea of evolution. “Science itself makes no sense if the scientific mind is itself no more than the product of irrational material forces” (b).

A related issue is the flexibility and redundancy of the human brain, which evolution or natural selection would not produce. For example, every year brain surgeons successfully remove up to half of a person’s brain. The remaining half gradually takes over functions of the removed half. Also, brain functions are often regained after portions of the brain are accidently destroyed. Had humans evolved, such accidents would have been fatal before these amazing capabilities developed. Darwin recognized an aspect of this phenomenal capability of the brain (c).

b. Phillip Johnson, “The Demise of Naturalism,” World, 3 April 2004, p. 38.

c. “Behind Darwin’s discomfiture [on how the human brain evolved] was the dawning realization that the evolution of the brain vastly exceeded the needs of prehistoric man. This is, in fact, the only example in existence where a species was provided with an organ that it still has not learned how to use.” Richard M. Restak, The Brain: The Last Frontier (Garden City, New York: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1979), p. 59.

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebo ... #wp1082496
What fools these mortals be!
Pahu78
Friendly Regular
 
Posts: 97
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 2:44 pm

Re: Science Disproves Evolution

Postby Chal on 29 Oct 2009 4:29 pm

Pahu78 wrote:By destroying the validity of ideas, evolution undercuts even the idea of evolution. “Science itself makes no sense if the scientific mind is itself no more than the product of irrational material forces” (b).

Sorry, but that's not the case. Science is built on the assumption that we can understand the universe, at least partially, but it is aware that this is only an assumption. Whether our minds developed through purely naturalistic mechanisms or not is irrelevant.

Pahu78 wrote:A related issue is the flexibility and redundancy of the human brain, which evolution or natural selection would not produce. For example, every year brain surgeons successfully remove up to half of a person’s brain. The remaining half gradually takes over functions of the removed half. Also, brain functions are often regained after portions of the brain are accidently destroyed. Had humans evolved, such accidents would have been fatal before these amazing capabilities developed. Darwin recognized an aspect of this phenomenal capability of the brain (c).

Honestly, do you even read your copypasta? This is idiocy approaching the levels of Ray Comfort. May as well be stupefied that humans could have developed lungs, since we'd have asphyxiated without them.

Look, I'm sure it will be embarrassing for you to admit that you don't have any understanding of evolution, but it will still be less embarrassing than the stuff you've dumped here.
"People don't need to be born again, they need to grow up."
- Bishop Spong
User avatar
Chal
Friendly Old-Timer
 
Posts: 729
Joined: 14 Jan 2009 11:53 pm
Location: Canada
Gender: Male
I am a/an: Agnostic Atheist

Re: The Validity of Thought 1

Postby hoverFrog on 29 Oct 2009 6:25 pm

Pahu78 wrote:You make some interesting and good points, but it still seems reasonable that if everything is entirely the product of irrational, unguided mechanisms, as evolution teaches, then our thoughts are also the product of those mechanisms and cannot be trusted, including your response.
And yours. You are arguing that any discourse is inherently irrational if evolution is true. You are attempting to make a "Shut up, that's why" argument but I do not accept your premise for reasons already outlined.

As to your sadness, the notion that God uses evolution in His creation seems contradictory. God is using His intelligence to direct an entirely irrational, unguided mechanism?
I agree that adding gods into the mix is contraditory but then I do not believe in gods of any kind. For some Christians it is an acceptible proposition and I can appreciate why. For a being capable of creating the entire universe it is rational to suppose that natural processes would be used. Evolution is a description of a natural process and so within the bounds of such a rational proposition.

God has revealed that He did indeed create everything and everyone. When He finished His creation, He said; “It is good,” meaning perfect. We were created in His image, which includes mind, spirit and free will. He allows us to exercise our free will knowing we can misuse it, which we did. We committed sin—disobedience.

Rather than annihilating us, He has given us a few thousand years to test our thesis that our way is better than His. He also took on human flesh and shed His blood for our sins so we wouldn’t have to die for our own sins. That act of love has opened the door of salvation for those who repent, submit to Jesus Christ as LORD, and obey His Ten Commandment Law.
So you say but I do not accept any of this.

One more thing: this life is not our last and only chance to accept His salvation. Reincarnation is part of His plan of salvation so that we can experience the results of our experiment in rebellion.
I do not recall any mention of reincarnation in scripture. Can you point me to the chapter and verse?

History proves we aren’t doing too well, doesn't it? He will not annihilate anyone before we learn the truth and have time to apply it. For most of us, that time lies in the future.
Well no, I don't think so. I think we, the human race, is doing quite well. We've come from cave dwelling savages to people who have explored the ocean depths as well as space. We can communicate with one another across the globe, we can travel almost anywhere in the world in a day, we can access information of any subject at a moment's notice. Could we do better? Sure but we could also be doing a lot worse.
"I'm British; we don't do fatwahs, we do tutting."
User avatar
hoverFrog
Friendly Moderator
 
Posts: 2221
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 6:44 am
Location: Hampshire, England
Gender: Male
I am a/an: Agnostic Atheist

Re: The Validity of Thought 1

Postby Pahu78 on 02 Nov 2009 6:13 pm

hoverFrog wrote:I do not recall any mention of reincarnation in scripture. Can you point me to the chapter and verse?


I am reluctant to enter into a Bible study here, but I will go a short distance down that rabbit trail. There are several places in Scripture that seem to hint at the reality of reincarnation:

“When He slew them, then they sought Him, and they returned and enquired early after God” (Ps. 78:34). Did they seek Him after He slew them? It sounds like it, doesn’t it?

“Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations” (Jer. 1:4,5). God is telling Jeremiah that He knew him before he was even conceived in the womb, and ordained him to be a prophet before his birth. How did God know Jeremiah was qualified to be a prophet before he was conceived in the womb, unless he existed before he was conceived? And how did Jeremiah qualify to be a prophet of God before he was born unless he lived in obedience and submission to God at least one lifetime before his birth as Jeremiah? After all, think what it must take for someone to qualify as a prophet of God. Surely a person has to know God, understand His will, and then choose to submit and obey. This takes time and maturity. It seems to me that Jeremiah had to have lived several lifetimes before his birth as Jeremiah.

One of the most direct statements concerning reincarnation is found in Matthew 11:13-15 where Jesus tells His disciples;

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias [Elijah], which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” Also: “And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, that Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed [wished]. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist” (Mt. 17:10-13).

We need to notice several things about these verses. The prophecy that the disciples were referring to is found in the last two verses in the Old Testament; Malachi 4:5,6: “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD, and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.” Most people explain those words of Jesus by quoting Luke 1:17 where an angel is telling Zacharias that he will have a son named John; “And he shall go before Him in the spirit and power of Elias…” So they claim that Jesus meant that John had come in the “spirit and power” of Elijah, not that he was Elijah. The problem I have with that explanation is that in Malachi 4:5, God said He would send Elijah, not someone else in the spirit and power of Elijah. Also, Jesus said John was Elijah, not that John had come in Elijah’s spirit and power. As to the angel’s statement; who would be better qualified to come in the spirit and power of Elijah than Elijah himself? Also, there may be a special significance to the word “spirit” in that statement. Perhaps we are being told that Elijah’s spirit occupied John’s body, which is, after all, what reincarnation is, isn’t it?

During Jesus’ condemnation of the hypocritical scribes and Pharisees, He made this statement:

“That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar” (Mt. 23:35).

Jesus said those scribes and Pharisees to whom He was speaking had taken part in slaying Barachias between the temple and the altar, which occurred hundreds of years before they were born. Reincarnation explains how this was possible.

In Romans 3:23 we learn, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” Since “sin is the transgression of the law” (1 Jhn. 3:4), then all have transgressed the law. Since the law is the Ten Commandments, then all have transgressed the Ten Commandment Law. The word “all” is pretty inclusive, isn’t it? Wouldn’t that include newborn babies? But how could they have transgressed the law? Which commandment did they transgress? Obviously none in this lifetime. So they must have transgressed the Ten Commandment Law in a former lifetime.

In Ephesians 1:4, we learn that “He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.” It sounds like we could have existed before the foundation of the world, doesn’t it?

In 1 Thessalonians 4:15,17, Paul wrote:

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Here we find Paul writing “by the word of the Lord,” saying that he and those to whom he is writing will be alive on earth in the flesh at the second coming of the Lord. He describes two kinds of people: The dead in Christ and those who are alive in Christ. “By the word of the Lord” he wrote that he and those to whom he was writing would be among those who would be alive in the flesh on the earth at Christ’s second coming. Paul and the Thessalonians all died about two thousand years ago, so if Paul was telling the truth “by the word of the Lord,” then the only way I know for them to be alive in the flesh on the earth at Christ’s second coming is if they reincarnate.

One day Jesus and His disciples found a man who was born blind. “And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?” (Jhn. 9:2). I think it is important here that we notice what Jesus did not say as well as what He did say in His reply. First, what did Jesus fail to say? His disciple had just asked Him a question revealing that they believed a man could be born blind as the result of his own sins. They didn’t ask Him if the man could be born blind as the result of his own sins. Their question indicated that they believed such a thing was commonplace and going on all the time. Their question revealed a belief in reincarnation. Perhaps they had accepted Jesus’ explanation of John the Baptist being the reincarnation of Elijah, as He had explained to them earlier. At any rate, they were telling Jesus that they believed in reincarnation. After all, how else could this man have been born blind as the result of his own sins, unless he had committed those sins in a previous lifetime?

Now these disciples were Jesus’ students. He was teaching them the truth, which He was later going to send them into the world to teach. If reincarnation were not true, doesn’t it seem strange that He didn’t immediately correct His students? He corrected them on many other occasions. He even corrected His enemies when they made false statements. Why didn’t He correct His disciples when they revealed they believed in reincarnation? I believe the answer is obvious: Reincarnation is a fact!

These are a few excerpts from the book; Reincarnation in the Bible?” You can find it here: http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/Book ... 000005147# and other book outlets such as Amazon.

I think we, the human race, is doing quite well. We've come from cave dwelling savages to people who have explored the ocean depths as well as space. We can communicate with one another across the globe, we can travel almost anywhere in the world in a day, we can access information of any subject at a moment's notice. Could we do better? Sure but we could also be doing a lot worse.


I respect you as an intelligent, informed person, so I find it hard to understand how you can fail to notice the destructive, deadly history of mankind in recorded history. More recently, after World War I, it was thought that was the war to end all wars and when at last we were entering a time of unlimited peace and prosperity. Then along came WWII, which was far more destructive and deadly including the Holocaust. At the same time there was atheist Communism that accounted for extreme misery, destruction, and the death of over 100,000,000 people. Then there is Islam with the notion everyone must die that disagrees with it, and the worldwide holocaust of abortion where about 50,000 babies are legally murdered every day.

You have chosen to focus on some of our positive achievements, and they are remarkable and noteworthy, but without the absolute moral guidance of our Creator, we inevitably descend into violence, destruction, misery and death, using that very same technology. It has happened over and over throughout history, and it won’t end until we repent, submit to Jesus Christ as LORD, and obey His Ten Commandment Law.
What fools these mortals be!
Pahu78
Friendly Regular
 
Posts: 97
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 2:44 pm

Life Science Conclusions 1

Postby Pahu78 on 02 Nov 2009 6:15 pm


Life Science Conclusions 1


When Darwin published The Origin of Species in 1859, the “evolutionary tree” had only a few gaps. Believers in his new theory thought that these gaps would be filled as scientific knowledge increased. Just the opposite has happened. As science has progressed, these “missing links” have multiplied enormously, and the obstacles to “bridging” these gaps have become even more obvious. For example, in Darwin’s day, all life fell into two categories (or kingdoms): animals and plants. Today, it is generally accepted that life falls into five radically different kingdoms, of which animals and plants comprise only two. (None of the five include viruses, which are complex and unique in their own way.) In the 1800s, the animal kingdom was divided into four animal phyla; today there are about forty.

Darwin suggested that the first living creature evolved in a “warm little pond.” Today, almost all evolutionary biologists will privately admit that science has no explanation for how life evolved. We now know that the chance formation of the first living cell is a gigantic leap, vastly more improbable than for bacteria to evolve into humans. In Darwin’s day, a cell was thought to be about as simple as a ping-pong ball. Even today, many evolutionists think bacteria—one of the first forms of life to evolve—are simple. However, bacteria are marvelously integrated and complex manufacturing facilities with many mysteries yet to be understood, such as bacterial motors and communication among bacteria. Furthermore, cells come in two radically different types—those with a nucleus and those without. The evolutionary leap from one to the other is staggering to imagine.

The more evolutionists learn about life, the greater complexity they find. A century ago there were no sophisticated microscopes. Consequently, gigantic leaps from single-to multiple-cell organisms were grossly underestimated. Development of the computer has also given us a better appreciation of the brain’s intricate electronics, extreme miniaturization, and vast storage capabilities. The human eye, which Darwin admitted made him shudder, was only a single jump in complexity. We now know there are at least a dozen radically different kinds of eyes, each requiring similar jumps if evolution happened. Likewise, the literal leap we call “flight” must have evolved not once, but on at least four different occasions: for birds, some insects, mammals (bats), and reptiles (pterosaurs). Fireflies produce light without heat, a phenomenon called bioluminescence. Other species, including certain fish, crustaceans, squids, plants, bacteria, and fungi, also have lighting systems. Did all these remarkable capabilities evolve independently?

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebo ... #wp1009763
What fools these mortals be!
Pahu78
Friendly Regular
 
Posts: 97
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 2:44 pm

Re: The Validity of Thought 1

Postby Chal on 03 Nov 2009 11:13 am

Pahu78 wrote:I respect you as an intelligent, informed person, so I find it hard to understand how you can fail to notice the destructive, deadly history of mankind in recorded history. More recently, after World War I, it was thought that was the war to end all wars and when at last we were entering a time of unlimited peace and prosperity. Then along came WWII, which was far more destructive and deadly including the Holocaust. At the same time there was atheist Communism that accounted for extreme misery, destruction, and the death of over 100,000,000 people. Then there is Islam with the notion everyone must die that disagrees with it, and the worldwide holocaust of abortion where about 50,000 babies are legally murdered every day.

You have chosen to focus on some of our positive achievements, and they are remarkable and noteworthy, but without the absolute moral guidance of our Creator, we inevitably descend into violence, destruction, misery and death, using that very same technology. It has happened over and over throughout history, and it won’t end until we repent, submit to Jesus Christ as LORD, and obey His Ten Commandment Law.

And yet things are still much better than they were before.

Pahu78 wrote:Darwin suggested that the first living creature evolved in a “warm little pond.” Today, almost all evolutionary biologists will privately admit that science has no explanation for how life evolved. We now know that the chance formation of the first living cell is a gigantic leap, vastly more improbable than for bacteria to evolve into humans. In Darwin’s day, a cell was thought to be about as simple as a ping-pong ball. Even today, many evolutionists think bacteria—one of the first forms of life to evolve—are simple. However, bacteria are marvelously integrated and complex manufacturing facilities with many mysteries yet to be understood, such as bacterial motors and communication among bacteria. Furthermore, cells come in two radically different types—those with a nucleus and those without. The evolutionary leap from one to the other is staggering to imagine.

Modern bacteria are very complex. The first bacteria would have been much less so. It's a pretty easy concept to grasp.

Pahu78 wrote:The more evolutionists learn about life, the greater complexity they find. A century ago there were no sophisticated microscopes. Consequently, gigantic leaps from single-to multiple-cell organisms were grossly underestimated.

And yet we've watched it happen, so it clearly wasn't too complex.

Pahu78 wrote:The human eye, which Darwin admitted made him shudder, was only a single jump in complexity. We now know there are at least a dozen radically different kinds of eyes, each requiring similar jumps if evolution happened. Likewise, the literal leap we call “flight” must have evolved not once, but on at least four different occasions: for birds, some insects, mammals (bats), and reptiles (pterosaurs). Fireflies produce light without heat, a phenomenon called bioluminescence. Other species, including certain fish, crustaceans, squids, plants, bacteria, and fungi, also have lighting systems. Did all these remarkable capabilities evolve independently?

Yep. Sorry.
"People don't need to be born again, they need to grow up."
- Bishop Spong
User avatar
Chal
Friendly Old-Timer
 
Posts: 729
Joined: 14 Jan 2009 11:53 pm
Location: Canada
Gender: Male
I am a/an: Agnostic Atheist

Life Science Conclusions 2

Postby Pahu78 on 03 Nov 2009 7:13 pm


Life Science Conclusions 2

An organ is a complex structure of different types of tissues and cells, all of which work together to perform a specific function such as seeing, hearing, digesting, or pumping. A system, such as the nervous system, circulatory system, skeletal system, or reproductive system, consists of related organs and other tissues and cells that have even broader functions. A healthy body has all its systems working properly. Life depends on a broad, compatible, and complex hierarchy: molecules −−> cells −−> tissues −−> organs −−> systems −−> body −−> other organisms −−> the environment. All are carefully balanced and integrated with each other.

Arbitrarily changing one component at any level will often be harmful at that level and to the vertical hierarchy. For example, change one type of molecule throughout a category of cells, and the result may be damaged cells and a diseased body. Environmentalists and ecologists are aware of this critical balance (regarding, say, the spotted owl and the environment), but often they fail to ask, “Who or what created this balance?” Some fail to see the incredible complexity, integration, and systems engineering that extends throughout the universe—from carbon atoms to galaxies to physical laws.

Humans are only one of millions of different organisms. To integrate all organisms into a living ecosystem requires stupendous design and balance. If evolution happened, time and natural processes alone must have maintained a livable environment for most forms of life as each new organism came into existence and proliferated. No global contaminants, plagues, predators, or famines could be allowed for billions of years. Imagine what would happen if a few organisms at the base of the food chain became extinct.

Who or what has the ability to design, construct, and harmoniously integrate and maintain all of life? Time and natural processes, as evolution states, or an infinitely intelligent Creator?

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebo ... #wp1009763
What fools these mortals be!
Pahu78
Friendly Regular
 
Posts: 97
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 2:44 pm

Re: Science Disproves Evolution

Postby Chal on 04 Nov 2009 1:07 am

As far as I can see, you're arguing that the current hierarchy of life is so complex that it could not survive changes to it, so it must have been designed instead.

As always, you've got nothing to back it up, and you're completely wrong. Our ecosystem is full of redundancies on every level. It isn't a house of cards. We've seen the results of mass extinctions in the past, and while they're certainly game-changers, life goes on. Life on Earth has been through ice ages and hot spots. Species come and go, but life has persisted through far more than you're giving it credit for.

Contaminants, plagues, predators and famines have all made their mark on life here, but they're components of evolution, not obstacles to it.
"People don't need to be born again, they need to grow up."
- Bishop Spong
User avatar
Chal
Friendly Old-Timer
 
Posts: 729
Joined: 14 Jan 2009 11:53 pm
Location: Canada
Gender: Male
I am a/an: Agnostic Atheist

Life Science Conclusions 3

Postby Pahu78 on 12 Nov 2009 1:58 pm


Life Science Conclusions 3

Before 1977, it was thought that sunlight provided the energy for all life. We now know that some organisms, living at widely separated locations on the dark ocean floor, use only chemical and thermal energy. For one energy-conversion system to evolve into another would be like changing, by thousands of rare accidents, the wood-burning heating systems of widely separated homes to electricity—but slowly, one accident each year. The occupants would risk freezing every winter. How such a system could evolve on different ocean floors, without solar energy, and in a cold, diluting environment has yet to be explained.

If evolution happened, many other giant leaps must also have occurred: the first photosynthesis, cold-blooded to warm-blooded animals, floating marine plants to vascular plants, placental mammals to marsupials, egg-laying animals to animals that bear live young, insect metamorphosis, the transition of mammals to the sea (whales, dolphins, porpoises, seals, sea lions, and manatees), the transition of reptiles to the sea (plesiosaurs, ichthyosaurs), and on and on.

Gaps in the fossil record are well known. A century ago, evolutionists argued that these gaps would be filled as knowledge increased. The same gaps persist, and most paleontologists now admit that those predictions failed. Of course, the most famous “missing link” is between man and apes, but the term is deceiving. There is not merely one missing link, but thousands—a long chain—if the evolutionary tree were to connect man and apes (with their many linguistic, social, mental, and physical differences).

Scientific advancements have shown that evolution is an even more ridiculous theory than it seemed in Darwin’s day. It is a theory without a mechanism. Not even appeals to long periods of time will allow simple organisms to “jump gaps” and become more complex and viable. In fact long periods of time make such leaps even less likely.

All the breeding experiments that many hoped would demonstrate macroevolution have failed. The arguments used by Darwin and his followers are now discredited or, at best, in dispute, even among evolutionists. Finally, research during the last several decades has shown that the requirements for life are incredibly complex. Just the design that most people can see around them obviously implies a designer. Oddly enough, evolutionists still argue against this design by using arguments which they spent a great deal of time designing. The theory of organic evolution is invalid.

As we leave the life sciences and examine the astronomical and physical sciences, we will see many other serious problems with evolutionary theories. If the Earth, the solar system, our galaxy, the universe, or even the heavier chemical elements could not have evolved, as now seems to be the case, then organic evolution could not even have begun.

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebo ... #wp1009763
What fools these mortals be!
Pahu78
Friendly Regular
 
Posts: 97
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 2:44 pm

Strange Planets 1

Postby Pahu78 on 12 Nov 2009 2:01 pm


Strange Planets 1

Many undisputed observations contradict current theories on how the solar system evolved (a). One theory says planets formed when a star, passing near our Sun, tore matter from the Sun. More popular theories hold that the solar system formed from a cloud of swirling gas, dust, or larger particles. If the planets and their known moons evolved from the same material, they should have many similarities. After several decades of planetary exploration, this expectation is now recognized as false (b).

a. “...most every prediction by theorists about planetary formation has been wrong.” Scott Tremaine, as quoted by Richard A. Kerr, “Jupiters Like Our Own Await Planet Hunters,” Science, Vol. 295, 25 January 2002, p. 605.

“To sum up, I think that all suggested accounts of the origin of the Solar System are subject to serious objections. The conclusion in the present state of the subject would be that the system cannot exist.” Harold Jeffreys, The Earth: Its Origin, History, and Physical Constitution, 6th edition (Cambridge, England: Cambridge University Press, 1976), p. 387.

“But if we had a reliable theory of the origin of planets, if we knew of some mechanism consistent with the laws of physics so that we understood how planets form, then clearly we could make use of it to estimate the probability that other stars have attendant planets. However, no such theory exists yet, despite the large number of hypotheses suggested.” R. A. Lyttleton, Mysteries of the Solar System (Oxford, England: Clarendon Press, 1968), p. 4.

“A great array of observational facts must be explained by a satisfactory theory, [on the evolution of the solar system] and the theory must be consistent with the principles of dynamics and modern physics. All of the hypotheses so far presented have failed, or remain unproved, when physical theory is properly applied.” Fred L. Whipple, Earth, Moon, and Planets, 3rd edition (Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 1968), p. 243.

“Attempts to find a plausible naturalistic explanation of the origin of the Solar System began about 350 years ago but have not yet been quantitatively successful, making this one of the oldest unsolved problems in modern science.” Stephen G. Brush, A History of Modern Planetary Physics, Vol. 3 (Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 1996), p. 91.

b. “The most striking outcome of planetary exploration is the diversity of the planets.” David Stevenson, as quoted by Richard A. Kerr, “The Solar System’s New Diversity,” Science, Vol. 265, 2 September 1994, p. 1360.

“I wish it were not so, but I’m somewhat skeptical that we’re going to learn an awful lot about Earth by looking at other planetary bodies. The more that we look at the different planets, the more each one seems to be unique.” Ibid.

“Stevenson and others are puzzling out how subtle differences in starting conditions such as distance from the sun, along with chance events like giant impacts early in the solar system history, can send planets down vastly different evolutionary paths.” Kerr, “The Solar System’s New Diversity,” p. 1360.

“You put together the same basic materials and get startlingly different results. No two [planets] are alike; it’s like a zoo.” Alexander Dessler, as quoted by Richard A. Kerr, Ibid., p. 1361.

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebo ... #wp1011388
What fools these mortals be!
Pahu78
Friendly Regular
 
Posts: 97
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 2:44 pm

Re: Life Science Conclusions 3

Postby Chal on 12 Nov 2009 4:53 pm

Pahu78 wrote:Before 1977, it was thought that sunlight provided the energy for all life. We now know that some organisms, living at widely separated locations on the dark ocean floor, use only chemical and thermal energy. For one energy-conversion system to evolve into another would be like changing, by thousands of rare accidents, the wood-burning heating systems of widely separated homes to electricity—but slowly, one accident each year. The occupants would risk freezing every winter. How such a system could evolve on different ocean floors, without solar energy, and in a cold, diluting environment has yet to be explained.

Once again, the fact that you don't understand something doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened.

Pahu78 wrote:If evolution happened, many other giant leaps must also have occurred: the first photosynthesis, cold-blooded to warm-blooded animals, floating marine plants to vascular plants, placental mammals to marsupials, egg-laying animals to animals that bear live young, insect metamorphosis, the transition of mammals to the sea (whales, dolphins, porpoises, seals, sea lions, and manatees), the transition of reptiles to the sea (plesiosaurs, ichthyosaurs), and on and on.

Yep, they happened. But not as great leaps, instead just a small series of changes. And we've got the fossils showing them happening for the most part.

Pahu78 wrote:Gaps in the fossil record are well known. A century ago, evolutionists argued that these gaps would be filled as knowledge increased. The same gaps persist, and most paleontologists now admit that those predictions failed. Of course, the most famous “missing link” is between man and apes, but the term is deceiving. There is not merely one missing link, but thousands—a long chain—if the evolutionary tree were to connect man and apes (with their many linguistic, social, mental, and physical differences).

The fossil gaps are tiny now, and most have been filled in well beyond expectations. Can you name a single "missing link"? There's nothing missing in our transitions from primitive apes to humans.

Pahu78 wrote:Many undisputed observations contradict current theories on how the solar system evolved (a). One theory says planets formed when a star, passing near our Sun, tore matter from the Sun. More popular theories hold that the solar system formed from a cloud of swirling gas, dust, or larger particles. If the planets and their known moons evolved from the same material, they should have many similarities. After several decades of planetary exploration, this expectation is now recognized as false (b).

Sorry, but did you skip all your science classes for Bible study? First off, non-living systems don't evolve, so this whole argument is fallacious in the first place, secondly, that expectation is moronic in the extreme as even a basic understanding of physics would show you.
"People don't need to be born again, they need to grow up."
- Bishop Spong
User avatar
Chal
Friendly Old-Timer
 
Posts: 729
Joined: 14 Jan 2009 11:53 pm
Location: Canada
Gender: Male
I am a/an: Agnostic Atheist

Re: Life Science Conclusions 3

Postby hoverFrog on 12 Nov 2009 6:13 pm

Pahu78 wrote:Gaps in the fossil record are well known. A century ago, evolutionists argued that these gaps would be filled as knowledge increased.
If you have two things that are similar in form and function like a stool and an armchair then you have one gap between them. If you find a transition between them like a kitchen chair (a stool with a back, maybe a small cushion) then you now have two gaps. You have one between stool and chair and chair and armchair. The gaps are filled but gaps still remain, they are smaller but there are more of them.

Of course, the most famous “missing link” is between man and apes, but the term is deceiving.
There is no missing link between man and ape. You are committing an error. Man (homo sapiens) is an ape. we belong to the same broad grouping of animals as chimpanzees and gorillas.

If the planets and their known moons evolved from the same material, they should have many similarities.
Why? I am largely made from carbon but I have little in common with a diamond or a lump of coal. Anyway as interesting as it would be to conceive of the natural selection of planets and their descendants :?: There are features of planets that are common. When was the last time you saw a banana shaped planet?
"I'm British; we don't do fatwahs, we do tutting."
User avatar
hoverFrog
Friendly Moderator
 
Posts: 2221
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 6:44 am
Location: Hampshire, England
Gender: Male
I am a/an: Agnostic Atheist

Re: Life Science Conclusions 3

Postby Pahu78 on 13 Nov 2009 11:30 am

Chal wrote:Once again, the fact that you don't understand something doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened.


True. It also doesn’t mean it could have happened, does it? When speculation conflicts with known, observable, repeatable facts, doesn’t that indicate the speculation is false?

Yep, they happened. But not as great leaps, instead just a small series of changes. And we've got the fossils showing them happening for the most part.


Where are those fossils?

The fossil gaps are tiny now, and most have been filled in well beyond expectations. Can you name a single "missing link"? There's nothing missing in our transitions from primitive apes to humans.


In the first place, objective paleontologists concede that one’s interpretation of the fossil record will invariably be influenced by one’s presuppositions (in the case of the evolutionists, the presumption that evolution has taken place), and that everything must therefore be forced to somehow fit into that framework. This has been precisely the observation of Ronald West:

“Contrary to what most scientists write, the fossil record does not support the Darwinian theory of evolution because it is this theory (there are several) which we use to interpret the fossil record. By doing so, we are guilty of circular reasoning if we then say the fossil record supports this theory.” [Ronald R. West (evolutionist), “Paleontology and Uniformitariansim.” Compass, Vol. 45 (May 1968), p. 216.]

Steven Stanley, highly respected authority from Johns Hopkins, has this to say on the lack of a transitional fossil record—where it matters most, between genera and higher taxa (in other words, immediately above the [often arbitrarily and subjectively defined] species level and upwards):

“Established species are evolving so slowly that major transitions between genera and higher taxa must be occurring within small rapidly evolving populations that leave NO LEGIBLE FOSSIL RECORD.” [Steven M. Stanley, Macroevolution and the Fossil Record, Vol. 36, No. 3, 1986, p. 460.]

If that weren’t enough to raise some doubts, Stanley, an affirmed evolutionist, is also objective enough to point out:

“The known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution accomplishing a major morphologic transition and hence offers no evidence that a gradualistic model can be valid.” [Steven M. Stanley, Macroevolution: Pattern and Process. San Francisco: W. M. Freeman & Co., 1979, p. 39.]

George Gaylord Simpson, another leading evolutionist, sees this characteristic in practically the whole range of taxonomic categories:

"...Every paleontologist knows that most new species, genera, and families, and that nearly all categories above the level of family appear in the record suddenly and are not led up to by known, gradual, completely continuous transitional sequences.” [George Gaylord Simpson (evolutionist), The Major Features of Evolution, New York, Columbia University Press, 1953 p. 360.]

David Kitts acknowledges the problem and reiterates the subjectivity with which the fossil record is viewed:

“Few paleontologists have, I think, ever supposed that fossils, by themselves, provide grounds for the conclusion that evolution has occurred. The fossil record doesn’t even provide any evidence in support of Darwinian theory except in the weak sense that the fossil record is compatible with it, just as it is compatible with other evolutionary theories, and revolutionary theories, and special creationist theories, and even ahistorical theories.” [David B. Kitts (evolutionist), "Search for the Holy Transformation," Paleobiology, Vol. 5 (Summer 1979), pp. 353-354.]

E. R. Leach offers no help, observing only that:

“Missing links in the sequence of fossil evidence were a worry to Darwin. He felt sure they would eventually turn up, but they are still missing and seem likely to remain so.” [E.R. Leach (evolutionist); Nature 293:19, 1981]

Among the most well-known proponents of evolution (and a fierce opponent of Creationism), even Steven Jay Gould admits:

“At the higher level of evolutionary transition between basic morphological designs, gradualism has always been in trouble, though it remains the “official” position of most Western evolutionists. Smooth intermediates between Baupläne are almost impossible to construct, even in thought experiments; there is certainly no evidence for them in the fossil record (curious mosaics like Archaeopteryx do not count).” [S.J. Gould & Niles Eldredge (evolutionists); Paleobiology 3:147, 1977]

“The extreme rarity of transitional forms is the trade secret of paleontology...The history of most fossil species includes two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism: 1. Stasis. Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear; morphological change is usually limited and directionless. 2. Sudden appearance. In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and ‘fully formed.’” [S.J. Gould (evolutionist); Natural History 86:14 (1977)]

[It seems a bit ironic that some quote Gould alluding in 1994 to “several” superb examples of intermediary forms and sequences—“more than enough” (according to Gould) to convince any fair-minded skeptic. Are we to understand that it was during the 17 years between 1977 and 1994 these “superb examples” were discovered (and if so, one wonders exactly which ones they were)? Or sometime during that period did Gould simply change his mind, deciding to dispute the findings of West, Stanley, Kitts, Leach and others (including himself!)? The only remaining explanation—not unheard of among evolutionists—would be a mild case of schizophrenic thinking.]

In spite of the agreement among many prominent evolutionist leaders that the fossil record does little to provide evidence of evolutionary transition, the likes of Mark Isaak somehow feel justified in declaring that, “Paleontology has progressed a bit since Origin of Species was published, uncovering thousands of transitional fossils ... there are still many instances where excellent sequences of transitional fossils exist.”

What a complete contradiction to both the above leading evolutionists’ own words, and the actual fossil record itself! If Isaak’s claims were true, why would the leading authorities of evolutionary thought so plainly disagree with this “spokesperson”?

Isaak even goes so far as to claim that, “notable examples are the transitions from reptile to mammal, from land animal to early whale, and from early ape to human.” Yet these same alleged “transitional sequences” remain no less equivocal and transitory (i.e., subject to continual dispute and re-evaluation among the “experts”) than any other. Isaak declares them “notable examples,” apparently based on his personal confidence more than on any tangible, empirical data.

One well-documented treatment of this subject (replacing evolutionary dogma with objective, critical evaluation) may be found in Dr. Duane Gish’s recently updated book:

- Gish, D. Evolution: The Fossils Still Say No. Institute for Creation Research, El Cajon, CA. 1995. ISBN 0-89051-112-8

Isaak, on the other hand, directs us to the transitional fossils FAQ in the talk.origins archive for “proof” of transitional fossils. A careful perusal of this source is well worthwhile, as it exemplifies the methods used by evolutionary “spokespersons” to defend their beliefs by blurring the line between dogma and science, touting so much theoretical speculation as if it were unequivocal, empirical data, so as to convince any willing disciple that they can’t possibly be wrong.

The above-mentioned FAQ, written by Kathleen Hunt, is in fact titled “Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ” (and does not even attempt to address the less conveniently “explained” absence of transitional specimens among invertebrates, or between invertebrates and vertebrates). It is comprised of hundreds of references to various species and genera, citing various organisms as related and/or ancestral, based on the work of several evolutionist paleontological authorities.

To the willing disciple of evolutionary doctrine, Hunt’s publication may seem overwhelmingly persuasive and encouraging. But an objective, critical look at the contents reveals that Hunt really does little more than perpetuate the myth of fossil transitions plainly denied by the evolutionist authorities quoted above. She seeks to accomplish this with a combination of many assertively made statements and (wherever possible) references to specific physiological similarities between certain species or genera, as suggested over the years by various phylogenic theorists.

What is missing from Hunt’s document is any honest acknowledgment that among the phylogenies she describes, few—if any—are universally accepted among paleontological authorities, and many remain tentative and subject to change, if not hotly disputed among authorities with differing viewpoints.

The reader is encouraged to remember that, given the abundant variety of vertebrate organisms in both the present and the fossil worlds, coercing a selection of them into a passable phylogenic arrangement to suit evolutionary preconceptions is no difficult task. Given enough time and material, and a willingness to “overlook” any “unsuitable” facts, the desired scenario could easily be constructed, using similarities wherever they help, and ignoring them wherever they don’t.

http://www.trueorigin.org/isakrbtl.asp
What fools these mortals be!
Pahu78
Friendly Regular
 
Posts: 97
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 2:44 pm

Re: Science Disproves Evolution

Postby hoverFrog on 13 Nov 2009 12:07 pm

Where are those fossils?
Go to a museum. No, no, not a creationist museum. A real one. Just about every major city in the west has a decent fossil collection.
"I'm British; we don't do fatwahs, we do tutting."
User avatar
hoverFrog
Friendly Moderator
 
Posts: 2221
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 6:44 am
Location: Hampshire, England
Gender: Male
I am a/an: Agnostic Atheist

Re: Science Disproves Evolution

Postby Pahu78 on 13 Nov 2009 2:40 pm

hoverFrog wrote:
Where are those fossils?
Go to a museum. No, no, not a creationist museum. A real one. Just about every major city in the west has a decent fossil collection.


Those collections show fossils, but no transition from one species to a different species. Instead, they show fully developed, functional life forms appearing suddenly with no connection to any ancestor of a different species, which indicates creation, not evolution. The attempt to show transitions in those collections is usually nothing more than similarities and the result of fertile imaginations.
What fools these mortals be!
Pahu78
Friendly Regular
 
Posts: 97
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 2:44 pm

Re: Life Science Conclusions 3

Postby Chal on 13 Nov 2009 3:54 pm

Pahu78 wrote:
Chal wrote:Once again, the fact that you don't understand something doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened.


True. It also doesn’t mean it could have happened, does it? When speculation conflicts with known, observable, repeatable facts, doesn’t that indicate the speculation is false?

But it doesn't conflict with known, observable, repeatable facts.

Pahu78 wrote:
Yep, they happened. But not as great leaps, instead just a small series of changes. And we've got the fossils showing them happening for the most part.


Where are those fossils?

Museums and universities, presumably.

Pahu78 wrote:
The fossil gaps are tiny now, and most have been filled in well beyond expectations. Can you name a single "missing link"? There's nothing missing in our transitions from primitive apes to humans.


In the first place, objective paleontologists concede that one’s interpretation of the fossil record will invariably be influenced by one’s presuppositions (in the case of the evolutionists, the presumption that evolution has taken place), and that everything must therefore be forced to somehow fit into that framework.

One's interpretation of anything will in invariably be influenced by one's presuppositions. That's a simple fact of life. However, when organised by age and objective morphological features, the fossils support evolution beyond any reasonable doubt.

And lose the quote mining.

Pahu78 wrote:
hoverFrog wrote:
Where are those fossils?
Go to a museum. No, no, not a creationist museum. A real one. Just about every major city in the west has a decent fossil collection.


Those collections show fossils, but no transition from one species to a different species. Instead, they show fully developed, functional life forms appearing suddenly with no connection to any ancestor of a different species, which indicates creation, not evolution. The attempt to show transitions in those collections is usually nothing more than similarities and the result of fertile imaginations.

Like he said, go to a real museum.
"People don't need to be born again, they need to grow up."
- Bishop Spong
User avatar
Chal
Friendly Old-Timer
 
Posts: 729
Joined: 14 Jan 2009 11:53 pm
Location: Canada
Gender: Male
I am a/an: Agnostic Atheist

Re: Science Disproves Evolution

Postby hoverFrog on 14 Nov 2009 3:14 pm

Pahu78 wrote:Those collections show fossils, but no transition from one species to a different species. Instead, they show fully developed, functional life forms appearing suddenly with no connection to any ancestor of a different species, which indicates creation, not evolution. The attempt to show transitions in those collections is usually nothing more than similarities and the result of fertile imaginations.
Good grief have you ever been to a real museum?

It is also worth pointing out (again!) what all fossils show transitional forms. All life forms are intermediates between an earlier form and a later form. Claiming there aren't any transitional forms is to deny all the evidence to the contrary.
"I'm British; we don't do fatwahs, we do tutting."
User avatar
hoverFrog
Friendly Moderator
 
Posts: 2221
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 6:44 am
Location: Hampshire, England
Gender: Male
I am a/an: Agnostic Atheist

Re: Science Disproves Evolution

Postby Ulrich on 15 Nov 2009 3:20 am

And of course every fossil belongs to a fully functional lifeform. If it had not been functional, it would not have been able to leave a fossil.

The effect of "spontaneous appearance" is easily explained: only a very small percentage of living beings fossilize. Most just rot (or are eaten).

As for the "fertile imagination" part, I think the transition from fish to tetrapods speaks for itself.
Ulrich
Friendly Acquaintance
 
Posts: 47
Joined: 05 Jan 2009 5:18 am
Location: Germany
Gender: Male
I am a/an: Agnostic Atheist

Strange Planets 2

Postby Pahu78 on 16 Nov 2009 5:59 pm


Strange Planets 2

Backward-Spinning Planets. All planets should spin in the same direction, but Venus, Uranus (c), and Pluto rotate backwards (d).

Backward Orbits. Each of the almost 200 known moons in the solar system should orbit its planet in the same direction, but more than 30 have backward orbits (e). Furthermore, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune have moons orbiting in both directions.

Tipped Orbits:

Moons. The orbit of each of these moons should lie very near the equatorial plane of the planet it orbits, but many, including the Earth’s moon, are in highly inclined orbits (f).

Planets. The orbital planes of the planets should lie in the equatorial plane of the Sun. Instead, the orbital planes of the planets typically deviate from the Sun’s equatorial plane by 7 degrees, a significant amount.

Angular Momentum. The Sun should have about 700 times more angular momentum than all the planets combined. Instead, the planets have 50 times more angular momentum than the Sun (g).

c. Uranus’ spin axis is “tilted” 98°. In other words, Uranus spins on its side and slightly backwards. Evolutionists have incorrectly speculated that Uranus must have been tipped over by a giant impact. However, such an impact would not have changed the orbital planes of Uranus’ larger moons, which are also “tipped over.”

d. The Astronomical Almanac for the Year 2003 (Washington D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 2003), p. F2.

e. Ibid.

f. Ibid.

The Moon’s orbital plane is inclined 18.5° – 28.5° to the Earth’s equatorial plane. (Actually, the Moon’s orbital plane precesses between those values over an 18.6-year cycle.) This is a considerable inclination when one recognizes that the Moon possesses 82.9% of the angular momentum of the Earth-Moon system. No other planet-satellite system comes close to this amount.

Theories that for centuries claimed to show how the Moon evolved can now be rejected because of this fact alone. A more recent theory claims that a Mars-size body collided with the early Earth and kicked up debris that formed the Moon. Ward and Canup acknowledge that:

“Recent models of this process predict that the orbit of the newly formed Moon should be in, or very near, [less than 1°] the Earth’s equatorial plane.” William R. Ward and Robin M. Canup, “Origin of the Moon’s Orbital Inclination from Resonant Disk Interactions,” Nature, Vol. 403, 17 February 2000, p. 741.

Nevertheless, speculative ways to circumvent this problem continue to be suggested. Even if some theory could explain the Moon’s high orbital inclination and angular momentum, other problems remain.

g. Lyttleton, p. 16.

Fred Hoyle, The Cosmology of the Solar System (Hillside, New Jersey: Enslow Publishers, 1979), pp. 11–12.

“One of the detailed problems is then to explain how the Sun itself acquires nearly 99.9% of the mass of the solar system but only 2% of its angular momentum.” Frank D. Stacey, Physics of the Earth (New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1969), p. 4.

Some have proposed transferring angular momentum from the sun to the planets by “magnetic linking.” McCrea states:

“However, I scarcely think it has yet been established that the postulated processes would inevitably occur, or that if they did they would operate with the extreme efficiency needed in order to achieve the required distribution of angular momentum.” William Hunter McCrea, “Origin of the Solar System,” Symposium on the Origin of the Solar System (Paris, France: Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, 1972), p. 8.

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebo ... #wp1011388
What fools these mortals be!
Pahu78
Friendly Regular
 
Posts: 97
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 2:44 pm

Re: Science Disproves Evolution

Postby Chal on 16 Nov 2009 10:51 pm

I think your spam bot got lost somewhere...
"People don't need to be born again, they need to grow up."
- Bishop Spong
User avatar
Chal
Friendly Old-Timer
 
Posts: 729
Joined: 14 Jan 2009 11:53 pm
Location: Canada
Gender: Male
I am a/an: Agnostic Atheist

Re: Strange Planets 2

Postby hoverFrog on 17 Nov 2009 9:30 am

Who says that this is how the planets should be? If theories do not conform to verifiable facts then it seems pretty clear that something about the theory is at fault. Perhaps some factor has not been accounted for or perhaps the idea has some basic flaw. Whatever the reason the model is incomplete because it does not fit the evidence.

More importantly what does the tilt of Uranus have to do with evolution? :lol:
"I'm British; we don't do fatwahs, we do tutting."
User avatar
hoverFrog
Friendly Moderator
 
Posts: 2221
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 6:44 am
Location: Hampshire, England
Gender: Male
I am a/an: Agnostic Atheist

Re: Science Disproves Evolution

Postby Sackbut on 17 Nov 2009 11:26 am

I was sure I put my keys in my pocket. They aren't there right now. I found them on the table. Therefore God exists.

Science says, when I put my keys in my pocket, they should remain there. Science has no answer for how my keys got onto the table. Therefore science is wrong. Therefore God exists.

This is what that cosmological argument sounds like to me.

So there are some theories that generally describe how planets form. So there are some open questions, or perhaps even questions with tentative answers, regarding some anomalies. So there are perhaps competing theories. So what? That's how science works. It's not a flaw in science, it's an advantage. This planet has this characteristic that is not explained by this theory, so we say "I don't know" and seek to find out, we don't run around screaming "the theory is wrong, science is bad, there must be a god". Maybe the theory is wrong, maybe it needs adjustment, maybe something else, but for the moment the question is just a question, not a catastrophe. It's not even troubling; it's just the way science works, how it always works.
Brian
Sackbut
Friendly Old-Timer
 
Posts: 343
Joined: 25 Apr 2009 12:14 pm
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Gender: Male
I am a/an: Atheist

PreviousNext

Return to Convert Me!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron