Can a devoted Atheist be good friends with a devoted theist?

[happycynic]

Ever heard the song "everyone's a little bit racist"?

it's true. everyone carries prejudices around in their pockets, although most people don't stop to take them out and wave them around.

What i what suggest to the Infidel to ask your friends some of the questions that you asked yourself when becoming an atheist. listen to their answers, and explain your own. Tell them where you get your ethics/morals from, since that seems to be a big concern with theists. Perhaps ask them if they believe you should spend an eternity in indescribable agony, and if they don't, why the honor and worship a god who does think you should. And explain that you don't want this to be a big issue driving a wedge between you.

basicly, just try to get them to understand your side. Let them know what you really think at the core of everything, and show them that atheists aren't really rabid man-eating villainous monsters with acid blood.

I can understand you're nervousness, but sometimes you have to make a stand for what's right.

[reedbraden]

Ever heard the song "everyone's a little bit racist"?

The Jews have arr the money
And the whites have arr the powa
And I arways in taxicab
With dliver who no showa!

[sexorcista]

Can a devoted Atheist be good friends with a devoted theist? Could you be friends with the other? Why (not)? What complications does it cause that could hinder friendship?

Whats a 'devoted' atheist? This question makes it sound like the world holds only two kinds of people! Atheists and Theists. Blek!

but....Nope ..in my experiences NO WAY I couldn't be 'close' to god-believers without being viewed as a potential 'christian'. My status of a non believer was not respected or seen in any kind of 'positive' light.

"everyone's a little bit racist"? it's true. everyone carries prejudices around in their pockets

No shit!

show them that atheists aren't really rabid man-eating villainous monsters with acid blood.

No shit!

don't make me laugh any more lest I piddle meself! (Whats the interest in PR these days..sometimes I feel that 'atheist' is a tad too self conscious.)

[The Infidel]

Another update:

Me and my Christian friends are still friends (much to the dislike of one of them's atheist-hating parents, hehe). Mainly because I was expecting alot of converting and subtle "let's talk about church last Sunday..." stuff, which, thankfully, did not happen. We haven't brought up religion much at all, but I do find it is mentioned more than before. It must have been a few months since I/they found out, and church and god have come up a few times - rather than for nearly three years before, us mentioning it probably once.

Anyway, I've learned first-hand that it wasn't what I was expecting, and, out of respect for them, I've been trying to cut down on my blasphemies (like, "what the hell?" and "Oh my god!"). Still, I've answered my own question now, though responses are obviously still welcome.

[The Infidel]

What i what suggest to the Infidel to ask your friends some of the questions that you asked yourself when becoming an atheist. listen to their answers, and explain your own. Tell them where you get your ethics/morals from, since that seems to be a big concern with theists.

Thanks for the response. I did consider asking them some questions, but I'm not very good upholding an argument in real life - and I didn't want to offend them.

[TygerFish]

For me, the most important factor determining whether a theist and I will be able to be friends is: mutual respect.

Most theists aren't stupid. More often, I find that they just haven't learned or thought about the things that I've learned or thought about that led me to not believe in gods. And that's okay, because even smart people make mistakes. If there is mutual respect (if you both see each other as generally good, reasonable people) you can discuss your beliefs calmly and rationally and explain to them *why* you believe what you do, and vice versa.

If there isn't a sense of mutual respect, you may notice that your theist "friend" isn't actually responding to the things you say, or that he/she doesn't even seem to be listening, or maybe that he/she has just outright started preaching at you. In which case, I find it helpful to say, "look, I know the dogma. I just don't believe that it's right. Do you believe that the earth is flat? It's the same thing for me with gods."

The kinds of theists I'm going to be friends with are generally the liberal sort, not the kind who go around intolerantly preaching fire and brimstone, so it's usually not a problem. And many of us were theists ourselves once. So give people the benefit of the doubt until they've proven their bad nature to you multiple times.

[jasonorlandohawk]

Depends on how many times we want to be called 'stupid.'

Overall, I agree with the idea that an atheist & a theist can peacefully coexist. One of my friends (who left for the military 4 months ago) claimed agnosticism, but I think he was using that title as a way to pacify his Catholic family members who would've exploded at the thought of him being an "atheist."

We had several good conversations on religion, and many more good conversations on the various geek-related topics we preferred to obsess over. Though he didn't share my beliefs, he was very complimentary of me, and on one notable occasion, I had to chew out a pastor friend of mine who had become to hostile in evangelizing to my friend. As such, we got along really well.

Now, granted, not all of my interactions with atheists has gone so well. I have received a few notable insults concerning my mental prowess. On other occasions, I encounter attitudes similar to what has even popped up in this thread...

Theists can be intelligent, sometimes...

I mean, their philosophy doesn't encourage an "open minded" attitude, and they probably haven't considered the clear cut evidence that persuaded us to blatantly reject their violent, condemning faith, but if you talk to them and present your case, you may discover they are intelligent... and they'll probably switch over once they finally read the Riddle of Epicurus. They're intelligent, just uninformed...

Yeah... umm... that's just calling me stupid politely.

I'm not saying that there aren't Christians who commit the exact same sort of insulting behavior, and I'm not saying there aren't (so-called) Christians who are harsh, violent, or blatantly stupid about some issues. When your religion accounts for about 1/3 of the world's population... you're going to get some disparity in behavior, after all. Still, if we're going to play a game of judging the whole on the basis of it's worst members... I could always pull out the Darwin quotes that theists love to display, which include some pretty blatant forms of racism.

And all of this, not surprisingly, would amount to zero productive conversation and zero positive impact on human society.

If you strip away a lot of Christian display and ritual, one of the central tenants of the faith is a strong divine mandate to alleviate suffering among fellow humans. (*gasp* "You mean the Bible says something other than... (obscene string of threats against homosexuals and women who don't wear hats) ?!?!). In fact, when I list the primary reasons that I count myself as a Christian, it is the (IMO, incredible) theological premise that God prefers that I alleviate human suffering over my participation in religious ritual, and that my attempts to alleviate suffering are considered religious ritual.

I am fully aware of the various objections to faith (both generalized problems, like the Riddle of Epicurus, and specific objections to Christian doctrine), and I fully understand why so many people approach faith with a heavy dose of skepticism. And just because I have "taken sides" doesn't mean that I've stopped pondering the big questions.

It's just that, for me: the weight of reasons to count myself a believer outweigh the reasons for me to declare myself an agnostic or atheist.

Really doesn't mean that I assume everyone will make the same choice that I do. There's a lot of value to skepticism in this world, and it's an underappreciated value within the church ("Seriously guys, you should probably double check his sources... *forehead slap*... Who called it? Who said that guy was lying?).

With my friend in the military, we both considered each other intelligent & reasonable, despite our differences (and in a sense, in honor of our differences). That is an attitude that has been noticeably bare from both sides of this conversation.

But, in an attempt to bridge the gap... what are some things that might help develop powerful friendships?

Of all the tools I've found, Personality Theory is one of my favorites.

It's pretty well established that there are multiple personality types, which are present to greater or lesser degrees throughout a given population. People with similar personality types often congregate together and find themselves to be members of similar groups. Why is this important to discussions of religion?

Well, little formal data correlates to the observations that I have personally noted, but I have helped administer leadership profiles to various educational (secular) and religious institutions, and the rule of thumb is... the group is usually very uniform.

Recently, I was involved in a religious leadership project that involved the use of the Keirsey (Myers-Brigg) Personality Inventory. When the final results were tallied (for those of you who are familiar w/ the inventory), there were over 30 Guardians, over 30 Idealists, exactly 2 Artisans, and exactly 2 Rationals. (Note: I was one of the two Rationals, INTJ profile, to be specific.)

As a general observation w/ other (smaller scale) uses of this inventory, the pattern is pretty consistent. The first two groups are very strongly represented, and the last two groups are hardly accounted for, if present at all. (Oddly, artisans may exhibit are larger presence in certain scenarios, such as overseas missions work, but in terms of Religious Leadership... practically non-existent.)

This was an important observation for me for one particular reason: since I started working in ministry, I always felt like other pastors were at odds with me. We were "on the same team," but I was treated like an outsider at times.

Now I have a better idea why. In Keirsey's Inventory, Guardians & Rationals are polar opposites in leadership style. I was an 'outsider' because I approached the job with different goals and methodologies...

But here's the thing, the different personality types develop around different skill sets. Intelligence is a multi-faceted thing. As such, there are things I'm really good at, and things that I'd rather not touch with a 10-ft pole. It seems that Guardians aren't more or less intelligent than I am, they are just specialized in different skills. It's an odd world sometimes, but I've come to appreciate the fact that they can cover for my weaknesses and skill deficits (and that my skills are highly valued... on the occasions they break down and admit such skills are necessary).

Since I have a large number of Rational friends (I've tested just about everyone I can get to sit down for more than 20 minutes), and they cover a wide spectrum religious and atheistic beliefs, I think that the lack of presence of Rationals in church may actually be a result of the power struggle that usually erupts when a Guardian is in the room, and a Rational kindly informs them they don't care...

While I know 5 rationals (other than myself) who would be considered theists, and even 'strong' or 'devoted' theists, only two are active members of a religious organization. The other 3 bow out of the organization (if not the belief system), universally, due to "politics."

This is all personal speculation, but I have theorized that some of the sharp divide between theists & atheists is a function of personality grouping. Still, since intelligence theory dictates that ALL the personality types are essential to a functioning society, I have to assume that I really don't have a right to insult another's intelligence. Our brains don't all function the same... AND THAT'S A GOOD THING!

[JulietEcho]

I agree that personality differences are in many cases more important in a relationship than religious differences, and they certainly coincide. It's hard for someone who's very emotional and feelings-driven, for example, to understand the attitude of someone who isn't. It's hard for introverts to understand party animals. Sometimes there just isn't enough common interest, chemistry, etc. to facilitate a bond.

I think I've probably given this opinion several times already on the forum, but here it is again: I think an atheist and a theist can be great friends, so long as the religious differences aren't something they dwell on. The occasional conversation or even debate can be healthy, but once either party is invested in dissecting the other's beliefs and analyzing them, the relationship is doomed, in my opinion. So if "devoted" means that they won't stop until they prove themselves right/win the argument/whatever, then no, I don't think that can facilitate a friendship.

My immediate family are very conservative Christians who would normally try to convert an atheist like me (subtly, to their credit), but in the interest of keeping the peace and staying close, that conversation is permanently tabled. A few of my very best friends are theists (liberal theists... I think our progressive ideology and common interest in social justice, our sense of humor, etc. is what draws us together more than anything), and several more are agnostics, atheists or just apathetic to religion. I think that's a category that we forget about a lot here, since our opinions tend to be pretty strong and we're obviously interested in religion since we're here! But tons of my friends and acquaintances and relatives are simply apathetic - they might believe in a god or not, but they don't make it a big part of their philosophy or life.

[TygerFish]

They're intelligent, just uninformed...

Yeah... umm... that's just calling me stupid politely.

Absolutely not! Not even in the slightest. Unintelligent and uninformed are two very different things.

I speak so vehemently because this is a position I hold myself: by default, I think that if I could share all of my knowledge and experiences with theists, that they would be forced to believe what I believe. But that's very different from saying that they lack the brainpower to make sense of my knowledge and experiences.

I often liken belief in god(s) to belief that the world is flat. Neither is an inherently stupid position. In fact, if you grew up in the middle of Iowa hundreds of years ago and never ventured far from home, it would be quite rational to infer that the rest of the world continued on like that. But, as it turns out, once you take everything into account, neither belief is the best explanation for the way things work.

I can imagine people saying that's an "elitist" viewpoint. But of course I believe I'm right. Just as everyone else believes that they're right. I'm an INTP myself; I don't endorse a position until it's been proven to me a dozen times over.

Anyway, the core of the problem is this: a lot of things come to bear on religious propositions, not everyone is exposed to all the evidence by default, and it takes a long time to come to a sense of mutual understanding with someone. This is especially true as you get older -- as you pile more and more experiences into your life -- since it takes much longer to express to someone all of the experiences that you've had that lead you to believe what you do.

It's important to remember that my hypothetical theist friend likely thinks I'm just as uninformed as I think she is. And there's nothing wrong with that! As long as we both have mutual respect for each other's intellect, we can just sit down and explain to each other why we believe what we do. The discussion might take weeks (or years), and it will likely (hopefully) not dominate all of our conversations. But as long as the sense of mutual trust and respect remains -- as long as we each believe that the other doesn't believe things without good reason -- the friendship remains.

[The Infidel]

I think people may have misunderstood the question slightly... I am not suggesting that the world only holds SERIOUS ATHEISTS and SERIOUS THEISTS. Just that two happen to meet one day and like each other... Naturally, being the devoted people they are, UTTERLY BY CHANCE, they mention their religious standing rather quickly.

Uh oh, now what? One really, really, openly admits to hating theists and thinks they are the scum of the earth and burns them or something; and the other one really, really, openly admits to hating atheists and thinks they are the scum of the earth and burns them or something.

Do you think these hypothetical, non-existant, fairy-tale people can work things out (hypothetically, ofc)?

I think the confusion may have come from my little anecdote but the question was IN NO WAY related to that conversation (considering the conversation happened afterwards). I am not saying that I am a devoted atheist with my friend, the devoted theist. Just ignore those posts. Although I would say I am a serious atheist in that I've never been the slightest bit agnostic or theistic, and have generally had bad experiences with theists I've met, I wouldn't say I am devoted as I seldom act on it.

[JulietEcho]

One really, really, openly admits to hating theists and thinks they are the scum of the earth and burns them or something; and the other one really, really, openly admits to hating atheists and thinks they are the scum of the earth and burns them or something.

Do you think these hypothetical, non-existant, fairy-tale people can work things out (hypothetically, ofc)?

Nope. Not likely. Not unless the circumstances surrounding their meeting somehow changed the way they think. Super pheromones? Only two people to survive a nuclear apocalypse? Maybe then. Otherwise, given your descriptions, no way.

[Huxley]

I believe it is possible. Having had some stand up ding dongs with some theists we have learned to give each other a bit leeway. I learned not to ask questions for which they have no answer (and I think I do) and in the meantime it has made them much more amenable to my other questions and suggestions.

Its part of the process of change.

Just to add (edit) I consider some of them to be close friends now!

[PersephoneM]

-
B: Hey, M, if you don't mind me asking, why don't you believe in God?
M: (trying not to be offensive)... I just don't find it convincing.
B: So, what? You just WANT to burn in Hell?

This is the stupidest logic I have ever heard to explain why some people are atheist. How does anyone confuse not believing in something with wanting it?

B: Egh, don't do that, or you'll get Atheists like HER commenting!!
M: (C has left) What's you're problem with Atheists?
B: No! Atheists are mean! An Atheist on FaceBook called me stupid! I hate Atheists! (hurtful, as to my friend I'd never openly admit I secretly hated theists too... I'm nicer than THAT)
A: Yeah, Atheists are horrible!! (they walk off. I have no other friends so I force myself to follow and pretend I'm OK with it).

First off, you have the right to be angry. I am regretful that the only "Christians" you know are such as these. personally, I am not sure that I would want to continue to be friends with such people, but if you do value this friendship, I would express that it hurt your feelings. That you respected them and enjoyed their company- and you would like to again, but that you are uncomfortable when they act like you are of less value than other humans simply because of a difference of opinion. Another atheist may have hurt them, but how can you be blamed for that? Suppose that person was hateful because he had come across just such an attitude from other Christians, and they are just spreading the hate? To return hate with hate will not bring peace to either side, only escalation of resentment to the detriment of society. They should be ashamed of themselves as human beings, let alone as Christians. I hope things are resolved in a satisfactory manner for you.

[Valkyrie]

My two best friends are theists - one is a Pagan and one is a Mormon. We don't talk much about religion, but when we do, we keep it civil. Even if I think their beliefs are silly, I can put that aside and look at them as a person outside their beliefs.

[Medora]

I am perfectly willing and able to be friends with someone who is a devoted, and even the most fundamentalist, Christian. The only thing I cannot stand is when a person only wants to discuss with me for a chance to deride my character and motives because of the beliefs I hold. If he is interested in honest dialog about our respective beliefs, though, I am all for it, any day, every day.